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October 30, 2006

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Jack,

You are no different in truth than Jennifer Grazt and her ilk. White Liberals like yourself love to demonize other whites for not measuring up. In my life I have witness countless examples of the shallow and phony demeanor's of white liberals. White liberals have mastered the game of shifting blame onto others hell rednecks have always been easy trash dumps for white liberals.

I have often discussed this even with my white liberal jewish friends how many of them like to have Black folks target those nasty WASPS as the nation's ugly racists while others in truth harbor the same contempt and will on election night tell the exit pollsters one thing but vote another way.

In our culture of course it has easy to blame the other white guys.. today many black apologists have made a living doing this type of field work..

White liberals often play the game of truly caring...They sign all the radical petitions, attend black churches on Sunday , eat big momma's chicken,pretend they are cool by playing hip-hop tunes and even protray the tough guy liberal reporter role the one you are quite at home with Jack...

The MCRI ballot is not really about anything other than a micro state litmus test of where white folks are today 2006 in the state of Michigan.. This MCRI would easily pass in every state of the union despite the our country's civil rights legacy.

It is white folks like you Jack and selfish white woman like Jennifer who have made race an issue in the year 2006.

I would like to sit out this one, for me this vote is a real time post 9-11 litmus test for white folks and thier relations today on the ground with Black people.

Becuase I know at the end of the day I will be disappointed by the will of white america..I will have to vote against the MCRI but it really does not matter becuase folks like Jack and Jennifer will not disappear..

Nor will I..

Jack,

Gratz -won- her particular case at the Supreme Court, by a verdict of 6-3. That's why U-Michigan made the changes it did. Don't let the facts get in the way of telling a good story, though...

"slightly lower averages"? Had she been admitted, Gratz's scores put her in the 46th percentile of white/Asian applicants accepted, but 83th percentile were she a minority. Calling it "slightly" is just more wishful thinking on your part.

Life isn't fair. Many reasonable people don't always agree on what 'fair' ought to mean in any given context. Distorting the truth just leads to more misinformation and a degradation the quality of the debate (which, AFAICT, is already pretty bad to begin with).

You want an interesting question to bring up? Why not ask -when- something like the MCRI should be put into law, if ever? If the MCRI were modified so it'd take effect, say, 10 years from now, how would people feel about it?

Here's my take on fairness. I believe a universal fairness lies in giving those who weren't given the tools necessary to reach one's potential should be cut some slack, and given a chance to catch up and prove themselves. Rather than swallow the line of blacks being economically disadvantaged, I would like to base affirmative action on just "economically disadvantaged" and take the racial/gender element out of the equation totally. Why not, if you are trying to help those that need help the most, base it on a purely socio-economic status of individuals.

What I find hard to believe is that this issue of socio-economic status is an issue that is rarely exposed without being paired with some racial statistic.

What I want to know, and have had a hard time finding the answer to, is if I decide to vote YES to Prop 06-02, would socio-economics still play a role in affirmative action decisions?

Ryan,

Your argument is the standard predictible nonsense one gets from either the right wing corner or someone in denial about racism.

Socioeconomic status is a partly a creature of race and often because race trumps everything on this soil those who toss up the socioeconomic argument look like they are deflecting......Bill Cosby a black millionaire has told the tale many times about his experiences in NYC when he could not get a cab becuase he was black and a millionaire...

Now tell me Ryan how come Cosby's socioeconomic status did not prevent him from being another casualty of America's favorite pastime....

Ryan play me a another excuse or predictible soundbite.. I will take the bait..

It would appear that public institutions could still use the socio-economic factor, though litigation is likely.

I'm far from being a right winger. I do consider myself an independent, though typically left leaning. I'm carefully pondering my decision on prop 2 because I fear the consequences and I take my role as a voter very seriously.

I understand racism. I come from a unique background. I as a white male in society know what it feels like to be a minority... because I grew up as one. Unlike many of my fellow white male minorities around me at the time, I found the experience humbling and educational... while many others found it a struggle and had a chip on their shoulder.

I found the challenge of breaking through barriers a task that made me stronger. I would never have felt the feeling of overcoming those barriers if someone had given me a cut to the front of the line. I also wouldn't have earned the respect of the others around me.

Don't get me wrong, I weigh heavily the task I'm asking minority michiganders to take on if I vote YES to prop 2. I understand families may not get the financial edge that they need to do well. Yet, I also know that there is a need for some minority cultures to take it upon themselves to take advantage of the power they have within, and to not exploit their own communities disparity through wide spread behavior that keeps such communities crippled. Actions such as gangs and drug trafficking. There's leaders who line their family and friends pockets and don't take action about the lack of security and plans for the communities they are responsible for. What's needed is inspiration. Maybe the relief given by affirmative action on the bases of race is too much like that cutting in line.
Don’t get me wrong, I can rationalize race-based affirmative action and why it's needed.
But I've spoke to numerous people about the proposal, and so many others lose respect for those who use race-based affirmative action.

Still not decided, no sound bites, just thinking,
Ryan

Ryan,

Your logic is circular and twisted in my view. White people even those so-called white minorities who at the end of the day are still white. In this country whites invented race based affirmative action from the ethnic cleansing of American Indians to the various degrees of racial preferences of separate but equal, segregation, jim crow laws, disparate treatment, GI bill... ect. you know our country's ugly legacy..

I find it amusing your invoking of the notion of "race base affirmative action". I do not call equal access and equal opportunity "race based preferences".

In truth becuase whites in this country need to be compelled to do moral and just things we need civil rights laws and AA becuase whites simply have a ugly history and legacy with regard to being fair and equitable on this soil.

BTW in this country you should know that most gang members and drug users and groups which prey upon innocent people are white males from Enron types to Catholic priests to domestic terrorits i.e Tim McVeigh..

Please Ryan attack those white folks who cripple our communities the list is endless of the crimes they commit against us all..

I have spoke to many whites and they are embrassed by this ballot in the year 2006. They are ashamed that whites are still playing the this divisive "
race card " after our country's horrible racial past. Whites I have talked with have lost respect not with blacks like me but with black apologists and whites like you and others who make excuses for backward notions and proposals like the MCRI..

Many whites want to move on with the race issue, many are sadden that our country is hated around the globe and yet many whites still today invoke ideas like the MCRI to trash other americans who happen to be black. Whites in this country who support the MCRI want to be at war even with fellow americans!!!!!!

Despite knowing the KKK is supporting the MCRI this information has not lesen the volume of support for this "race based" ballot in our state.

Ryan at this late date to be undecided reveals a lot to me about your true nature , stop making exuses for your racial underdevelopment and myopic views.. Vote Yes if you have principle or care about your fellow americans who at the end of the day are not white like you and your other white minority friends

Ryan Wozniak -- However you finally vote on this issue, I admire your willingness as a citizen to take the time to think this through in a mature and rational fashion. It IS a complex question.

Ryan,

This IS NOT a complex question... Jack is not being honest with you because he is a tortured white liberal who ping pongs on any racial issue. White liberals have zero backbone on issues where race is at the core..

Ryan
It is a simple BLACK & WHITE issue as a white voter do you still seek to play the race card and have contempt for your fellow Black Americans in the year 2006 given our country's horrific and racial legacy..

Yes=you seek to continue to play the race card

No=you seek to move pass the issue of race and promote equal opportunity

It is complex. It does take backbone to question your standing and the standing of those around you. I can do nothing to correct history, but I have to look to the future and promote the rules that I feel will generate, in the long-run, a more sustainable and fair society.

Minorities do face a socio-economic disadvantage in this country. I think by focusing affirmative action on economics, we stand to benefit those that are most in need. I hope that backgrounds are taken in to account. I hope that affirmative action can include more factors than what are currently involved in the program. To reach a goal of true diversity, we need to consider all view points, and try to encorporate them in a fair and just manor.

Thank you for being honest, I needed your input,
Ryan

Ryan,

Yes you can change history and correct its impact with regard to the future. BTW do you have the same reservations about legacy admissions?? Legacy programs are the silent white race preference action benefits no one is upset about nor does it get the same profile that AA programs get!!.. of course the reason why is becuase when white folks get the benefit of white affirmative action programs it is never questioned!!

Affirmative Action programs are quite inclusive and focus on socio-economic issues as well as regional issues and legacy concerns.

Your myopic focus on just class issues ignores the obvious issue of race, which as a I have stated many times in here RACE trumps everything in the USA again just listen to Bill Cosby's tales as a Black millionaire the racism he still encounters..

Jack is just great. I almost never agree but he does have a great mind.

Jennifer Gratz and her crusade was inevitable. Say what you want she's energetic and engaged.She gives no quarter in interviews and her logic is provocative.The opposition can attack her technically and make claims about what she did or didn't do when she was wait listed.

Ms. Gratz' strikes a deep emotional cord with white middle class folks who are struggling hard to educate their kids and provide the best available education. These folks don't see the game as balanced.They see Ms. Gratz' plight as a manifestation of a system gone amuck.

Take for example a Channel 7 interview of a black young woman at U of M. She was from Farmington Hills and she stated that both of her parents were physicians. She went on to discuss her logic behind her "no" vote on Proposal 06-2. I listened to her for a moment and then pondered why does this kid need any preference? You couldn't have asked for a more pro "yes" interview than this young articlating the need for admission preferences based on race.

For me, the reality is that Jim Crow by INCOME has replaced Jim Crow by RACE. Black folks don't like this because of its obvious implications.

I prefer an meritocracy based admission policy-let's have a policy that is focused on the poor but talented.I think that equity based voters could agree that preferences based on income would be so much more consistent with good public policy. Less divisive too.

Jack needs a real education for the REASONS behind the distrust white folks have of black leadership in Detroit. He needs to stop thinking that all white suburbanites are ranting Donald Lobsingers.He sees a "yes" on Proposal 2 as just another manifestation of deep seated, virulent racism that only resides in the suburbs.

I went out to the U of M website that created a pretty elegant quantitative decsion making model. I read both News and Freep articles and editorials. I tried to read everything I could on this issue. After careful consideration, I believe I will vote "Yes".

I must sign off now because I must see if my white sheets and hoods fit properly and I must ensure that the kerosene soaked crosses are at the ready.

Jose,

Your logic is so weak if you had a pink sheet on in an all black ghetto house party I doubt if I would notice you.

White folks distrust of Black Leadership is your attempt at making a joke right?... White folks failed leadership has crippled this country since it's illegal beginnings..White leadership..lol,lol lol what pray tell is that a new McDonald's salad or a new porn movie..You have no doubt been educated in a over inflated white middle class school district..

Apparently you have never read any American History even revisionist history written by white males do not display the depth of denial you are in.. Read a book stop playing on the internet and trying to be funny..

The white middle class has never been anything more than a bunch of slackers and bean bag slugs.. They send thier kids to inflated colleges.... They purchase more porn than any pervert and will bend over to the latest one trick pony trend from Hollywood.

The white middle class has more unearned entitlements than any Defense contractor or 3rd world country selling drugs to the US middle class.

Get real Jose, the middle class in America has always been the silent majority who supported Jim Crow laws and the perks of being lazy whites ...The white middle class has always dumped on rednecks and poor whites and played the game with good negros and coloreds..

Jose I do find it revealing that you were afraid to confront my posts and superior logic . Your dodge was predictble and speaks to my themes about the empty vessels and shallow posturing of the white middle class.

BTW "Guess who is coming to Dinner"..lol,lol,lol..After you finish firing up your cross make sure my beer is cold...ha, ha,ha

After some more consideration, I believe I will vote NO on prop 2. I took a trip to the African American Museum and thought, "Could the funds from this public institution be cut by voting YES to PROP 2?" I couldn't live with myself if that were to happen. I found the visit quite educational. I knew of the horrors of the African-American history, but the education on AFRICA itself was quite uplifting. I also found myself questioning the role of stereotypes to a deeper level then I had previously.

To answer your question about legacies... yes, I'm profoundly upset by this subject. Equally upsetting is preference to RICH or FAMOUS offspring. I wouldn't blink at voting to ban such treatment by public colleges.

I disagree that race trumps everything. Money trumps everything. Status trumps most everything. Believe it or not, the white population is changing & finding a huge responsibility and obligation in trying to correct the ills that racism has brought to society. What still needs much attention is the granting of privilege due to status, wealth and power. There are too many people in society that grants greater access to people based on their materialistic standing. Just as racism has been exposed as an ill in society, materialism has yet to be given the same attention.

Who agrees that a young couple needs or could make good use of a house with 6000+ square feet. This is not a house, it is a status symbol. And this equates to another symbol of entitlement and privilege. This is a sickness of our society that has much farther to go than racism that has made leaps and bounds in recent generations.

Thanks,
Ryan

Ryan,

Interesting and very insightful.. You have opened my eyes just a wee bit and for that I respect you and appreciate your willingness to fence and postback with me..

As I have posted many times on this site the MCRI from my vanatage point is a white race litmus test for me.. I am glad you have pass the test...

Thrasher,
Racism is a two way street. Regret to read your last post. It expels its own stereotypes that poison the logic that you wish to hold superior. It's sad.

White middle class is riddled with many flaws, as is any social level on American soil. We doom ourselves to a flawed plan for progress if we are to approach it separately. We have to be united in order to ever truly advance in a sustainable way.

Do you really want to fight over "middle class entitlements" or do you want to accept them as an American standard for all. A society that shouldn't have to worry about going hungry from day to day. A society that knows they will have a roof over their heads. A society that always wants better for their children.

Are those the entitlements that you wish to paint as undeserving? Breathing should entitle you to these simple humanitarian standards. Wouldn't you say?

Reconsider your stance; it seems you feel there will never be enough entitlement to go around. I disagree. It takes stronger communities. It takes a smarter plan for tackling society's ills. It takes a real focus for happiness. It takes activism.

What do you think?
Ryan

Ryan,

The entitlements I am referring too are the 2nd house tax deductions,various class benefits of not living in venues where auto and home insurance is redlined, toxic plants that put cancer in the lungs of poor people because the plants have the same zip codes, where predatory lending and racial profiling is the norm... The entitlements I am referring includes having your children avoid being in Iraq becuase they get legacy admissions etc.

Poor people and that includes white folks as well as black folks love thier kids, they want clean water and fresh air, roofs over thier head, food and drink for everyone..

Humanity has always been the domain of the poor... Black folks created this country's civil rights legacy and respect for the basic digity of human beings this elemental notion did not emerge from the white middle class as a matter of fact the white middle class had to be compelled by our laws to respect one's religion, sex, race and nationality...

They did not volunteer to be noble and fair minded!!

No I am not going to apologize for my post about the fat and selfish white middle class the same people who have always had the opportunity to open the doors to the poor white and black folks becuase they live in they down the road a bit not in Beverly Hills or the Elite zip codes of the rich..

Ryan I am America's living legend an icon, a real life activist, I have been on the ends of every kind raced based venom to death threats in my e-mail..

Please do not get me started about the life of being an activist..just sit back and learn from the truths and vision I bring to this site from your pc that works for me;-)OR watch my TV show on Channel 18 in the Birmingham-Bloomfield area of Comcast... Please call the station for airtimes...

Mr. Thrash:

My original comments were directed at Jack but since you weighed in....

You are defiance personified. Dangerous fellow with broad "white" and "middle class" stereotyping. You clearly have a white middle class problem. "illegal beginnings......? Don't trust history written by white men? "More unearned entitlements.....?" Yikes.

When are you staging the coup? Are you opening a new chapter of the White or Black Panthers? I can only say that you need a refill on the Ritalin.

Just finished "Enough" by Juan Williams. Just started "And Still We Rise" by Miles Corwin. Both compelling to the point where I think a "No" is in order for Prop 2.

Still a dumb, fat white guy who lives in the burbs in a 2000 square foot home.

Jose,

Is that your best retort from a fat white guy with a little house in Taylor??

BTW I get called worst venom from my basketball foes. Amazing when a Black male dares to have an opinion and offers up the truth one gets called a balck panther and on the drug ritalin.... You forgot to trash my Momma... or slamm my dna...

Jose, You never had any passion for life it appears nor been on the end of any racial insult or death threats as well.

BTW Juan Williams is a black apologist and has always been a lacy and mouthpiece for AWM's

Miles Corwin cuts no new ground with his "done better by others" book.

I am still glad to see you are voting correctly on the MCRI a "NO" vote is just what I wanted.. My influence is so strong in here...Thanks..

Surprise-surprise

White,47,married,kids, born and raised in Detroit(6 Mile/Livernois). College in NY, Army,grad school in Chicago and lived in Chicago(southside) Live in 48304-make a lots of dough and my business crew love me. Multicultural and gender crew with great skills. Live in 48304 because the "hood" is a "gun and don't snitch culture". Lots of pathology there-just don't need to be killed. Love Detroit but see ranting semi-literate Al Sharptons like yourself as counterproductive. Bet you don't have the cajones to tell your boss or your co-workers how you really feel. Those schizo tendencies really manifest themselves when you are typing-don't they? Death threats, racial epithets-gimme a break. Just what the community needs-another black nonhacker that feels compelled to attack and impale white folks. Well-I came from Detroit, spent a lot of time living, interacting, socializing and learning from a broad spectrum of ethnic groups both in Detroit, military and work life. You simply don't measure up tough guy. You run around scaring white folks with your strained logic-but I know you. I'll admit you are rare-but I'll bet your a closet hater. Hmmm-who is the racist. Bring it tough guy-Detroit is what it is because of nonhackers like you. You really love to hate and spew your baseless indictments. Get a law degree and go down and try a good case in front of Anna Diggs or run down to the 6th Circuit and argue in front of Damon Keith.Both eminent black federal judges. You would not last two minutes. The US Marshal would throw you out. Get a life. I still think you revert to a meek, mild "yessir boss" in your day job. Deal with it.

Jose,

My posts apparently have been lethal to your "I am fat white guy living in 2000 SF house in Taylor ego."

It is obvious you resent facts , logic and the truth. You are to busy being hiding behind your racism , being a hypocrite with your multicultural crew who I doubt they would recognize you if I sent them your e-mails.

BTW I am self-employed and I live in Birmingham . I am the most published social activist in the region past 10 years!!

Please have the courage to google me Greg Thrasher.. I am currently the host of the first and only host of a Black TV in Birmingham/ Bloomfield, MI.

My phone number is published , I am recognized quite a lot in my hood...

Truth is you resent and have envy for Black males like me who not only can sholve the truth down your fat ass throat but can do it to your entire community 24/7.

Unlike you I have attended 2 law schools and Unlike you I do not hide my truth thoughts around folks.

Fact is you nor Jack or anyone who posts on this site can defeat, reject or prove me wrong about any of my facts about the criminal nature and underdeveloped cultural dna of white americans in particular white males.

Truth is always a defense to slander, speculation, hate speech and pulp fiction. I enjoy rocking your world with elemental constructs and ideas. Folks like you are the reason our nation has become a global pariah and your own kids have contempt for parents like you.

No I am a icon and living legend, hell I do not need to remind or brag to foks I was born in Detroit . I do not need a gun nor do I fear any man not in the least a fat slug living in Taylor.

Googled you and I found nothing of substance. Just a black Donald Lobsinger.

I did see a little ditty about your son attending UVA. Probably decided the financial "aid" was too hard to resist despite your misgivings about DNA sweeps among black populace in Charlottesville. For you, money does talk louder than your heart. Another case of hypocrisy. Talk the talk-but don't walk the walk.

The funniest though was the phone interview. The newspaper stated that your ran a "think tank". Oh yeah-up there with Brookings or Cato Institute. The Thrasher Institute-higher level thinking for you honky racist pigs. If you hate white guys so much-why do you live among them? Startling inconsistencies and just plain bullshit. I do notice a more temperate tone when you are trying to sell the cable board on your programming ideas-the tone is a little more "yessir boss" than the firebreathing diatribes on these posts. Perhaps I should transcribe this dialogue and send it to the various local cable boards so they can get a flavor of your real predisposition towards white folks. What a liar-a bareface liar.

Jose,

Please send them and all of my commentaries... I love having a free press agent.

Please tell them about my show on channel 18 as well. I could use some more outlets.. BTW you better learn how to read first..

My daughter was admitted to UVA and my son was thinking about attending UVA until we found out about racial dna tests that is why I made CNN news and the covers of many papers.... of course my daughter went to NYU law school and my son to Howard both superior schools.

My kids do not get aid they have scholarships plus I am to much $$$ to get free $$$.

Yes!!!.. Jose thier are heroes like me and icons like me and living legends like me that walk the earth and live in this region..get over me ...lol,lol,lol

One final note before I move on if you want my autograph do not be to shy to ask for it.. I will give it to you..lol,lol,lol

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